Time Tunnel

Anything about the Artemis Fowl books.
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Tue 7th Nov 2006

Hybras is moved insode a time tunnel by the warlocks in the Lost Colony. However I'm not entirely certain I understand exactly how this time tunnel functions.

Several times in the book Hybras is mentioned as being in another dimension, which would make perfect sence. Hybras is not within our own three dimensions but within it's own three dimentions instead. However, on page page 84-85 Artemis sais this:

"So, the demon warlocks wanted to move the island from plate A to B, but not through space, through time".

Which means that Hybras was not moved into any new space dimensions, so the easy explanation doesn't work any more. The only way I can think of where a time tunnel could be created was through imaginary time, where time itself has dimensions. With at least two time dimensions we could roll up a tube and place Hybras inside.

Could someone help me here :banghead: ?
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Post by MMK » Tue 7th Nov 2006

In some theories, time is considered to be the fourth dimension. If this were true in the Artemis Fowl world, then by making Hybras stationary in time, they would be in this fourth dimension.

That's the only thing I can think of.

Oh, and a dimension could be in the same spot, so technically switching dimensions wouldn't be moving through space.
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Tue 7th Nov 2006

MMK wrote: In some theories, time is considered to be the fourth dimension. If this were true in the Artemis Fowl world, then by making Hybras stationary in time, they would be in this fourth dimension.

That's the only thing I can think of.

Oh, and a dimension could be in the same spot, so technically switching dimensions wouldn't be moving through space.

Very good point. Swithcing dimensions certainly does not necceseraly mean to move at all.

If time is the fourth dimension, halting Hybras would make it stationary in one time, but that means it would still be a place in time. But the island was the only thing there, right? So we would have to put Hybras in a seperate time-line.

I just relized that if we wrap time (however many dimensions it has) around Hybras, possibly letting Hybras bounce around in the wrap, then the strange time shiftings there would make sence. And it somewhat helps explain the time tunnel which Hybras is inside. Does that sound possible?
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Post by NinjAngel » Wed 8th Nov 2006

Gravitational Singularity wrote:
MMK wrote: In some theories, time is considered to be the fourth dimension.  If this were true in the Artemis Fowl world, then by making Hybras stationary in time, they would be in this fourth dimension.

That's the only thing I can think of.

Oh, and a dimension could be in the same spot, so technically switching dimensions wouldn't be moving through space.

Very good point. Swithcing dimensions certainly does not necceseraly mean to move at all.

If time is the fourth dimension, halting Hybras would make it stationary in one time, but that means it would still be a place in time. But the island was the only thing there, right? So we would have to put Hybras in a seperate time-line.

I just relized that if we wrap time (however many dimensions it has) around Hybras, possibly letting Hybras bounce around in the wrap, then the strange time shiftings there would make sence. And it somewhat helps explain the time tunnel which Hybras is inside. Does that sound possible?

It sounds plausible. Unless someone wants to look up and research Time, then we really won't know for certain. *thinks* If no one does it by Sunday, I'll do it. :lol: I'm just into these kinds of things...
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Wed 8th Nov 2006

What would be nice is if someone could find any connections to any theories or hypothesesis that has been made about such time tunnels. I hoped that the question must have been asked directly to Eoin Colfer sometime and that the answer had spread.

If you wan't to contuct a reasearch that would be nice, allthough if you do I'm certain you will find many different theories which can explain the time tunnel in some way. My own guessings of the time tunnels workings comes from what I'v read about the theories and possibilities surrounding imaginary time mostly by Stephen Hawking.
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Post by MMK » Thu 9th Nov 2006

I di a report on time distortion for science once (way too difficult, but it sounded cool initially).

I think the time tunnel sounds a lot like a wormhole. Theoretically they could be turned into a time machine. Wormholes are like tunnels in that they open at both ends in two different spots, but the tube goes through another dimension, so practically it's as if you go in one end, and then space folds so that you're very quickly out the other, despite the distance. It could be used to quickly travel millions of miles, or, theoretically, years. It's a very popular device in scifi books.
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Thu 9th Nov 2006

MMK wrote: I di a report on time distortion for science once (way too difficult, but it sounded cool initially).

I think the time tunnel sounds a lot like a wormhole. Theoretically they could be turned into a time machine. Wormholes are like tunnels in that they open at both ends in two different spots, but the tube goes through another dimension, so practically it's as if you go in one end, and then space folds so that you're very quickly out the other, despite the distance. It could be used to quickly travel millions of miles, or, theoretically, years. It's a very popular device in scifi books.

So you mean that the time tunnel is a wormhole or the distance between two wormholes that leads to eachother? Also, could you explain what would happen when the time tunnel unravels according to what you know about wormholes?
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Post by MMK » Thu 9th Nov 2006

I think you misunderstood me- a wormhole would be like this (the diagram is done showing what a wormhole would be like if we lived in a two dimensional space, since there's no way to show a fourth dimension):

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The wormhole would be the entire tunnel, with one end opening in the volcano on hybras, and the other I-don't-know-where.

If a wormhole unraveled...umm...

I'm not sure that's possible. If the time tunnel was a wormhole, my theory would be that the magic anchoring the wormhole unraveled. That way, the mouth, or opening of the wormhole, would be moving around through time and space, causing the effects we see in the book.
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Thu 9th Nov 2006

Ah, I see. I thought A and B would be the wormholes.
So, if hybras was travelling from A to B in a wormhole demons who jumped into the volcano without silver would drop out of the wormholeand into a place in space-time. But since the wormhole doesn't have a route through space you could pop up anywhere in space-time when dropping out from the wormhole. Seems like a plausible theory.
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Post by MMK » Thu 9th Nov 2006

Yeah, it's the only thing I can think of that can fit. The only think that doesn't add up is the fact that the demons kept moving through time and space even after they left the time tunnel.

Also, this is sort-of relevant , and I figure since this is a more technical discussion I might get some more satisfactory answers. I'm copying this from a post I made the lost colony discussion (page 4, I think):

The only reason Artemis remembers the encounter with Abott wher Holly is shot is because he used magic to keep it in his brain. It never actually happened. Looking at it chronologically:

1)Abbot reaches back to stab Holly;he gets hit by a bullet
2)he is flung against the wall
3)Holly, who has never died is helped by Artemis to move n'zall
4)they join the magic circle, etc.

Nowhere in there is Artemis firing that bullet. Artemis could not have, because Abbot was knocked unconscious before threatening Holly, and therefore never threatened Artemis, and the exchange could not have happened. So, where did the bullet come from?

Also, I just realized: right before the jump backward, time was going forward at a half hour per second. So "two minutes ago" would really be an hour ago. Then the bullet, whipped back only two minutes in time, would be too late, wouldn't it?
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Thu 9th Nov 2006

It's known as the grandfather paradox. Here's my suggestion for a solution to the grandfather paradox with the use of imaginary time:

Timetravel would be to move in a different direction or/and speed in time. Following the normal timeline so often used that means traveling beyond B, or from B towords A.
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To use imaginary time we encrease the directions of time so that we don't have to follow the normal course of events (green line). Instead we can take an alternate path and move in directions C and D (red line). That way we could end up in a place where things didn't go the same way as here, but it wouldn't erase what happened in the normal timeline (green).
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So, when Artemis fired the gun and saved Holly his direction in time shifted in direction C or D. Abbot was knocked uncouncious by Artemis's shot in this new point in time, but he was not knocked out in the original timeline. The problem here would normally be that the person could never have remembered what the original line of events was. But as MMK said, Artemis used magic to keep it in his memory.
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Post by MMK » Thu 9th Nov 2006

So in that case, if Artemis hadn't wrapped the memory in magic, than what would have happened to him? How do the two timelines merge back together at the end?

I guess what you're saying would make sense, but I always thought of time travel like this: you move forward, and then jump back, but you still move along forward through time normally after that. for a brief time you'd be in two places at once.

It's hard to explain, but I couldn't find a good picture so I had to try.

And if it didn't erase what happened in the normal timeline, wouldn't Holly still be dead?
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Thu 9th Nov 2006

MMK wrote: So in that case, if Artemis hadn't wrapped the memory in magic, than what would have happened to him? How do the two timelines merge back together at the end?

I guess what you're saying would make sense, but I always thought of time travel like this: you move forward, and then jump back, but you still move along forward through time normally after that. for a brief time you'd be in two places at once.

It's hard to explain, but I couldn't find a good picture so I had to try.

And if it didn't erase what happened in the normal timeline, wouldn't Holly still be dead?

The new timeline would never merge with the original one. After all you said it yourself, Holly is dead in that timeline.

Unfortuantly basic quantum physics would prevent you from being able to speed up the tarvel from point A to B (from the fig. in my previous post). It also prevents you from traveling back in time. The same matter can't exist two places at the same time, and if you traveled in time and met yourself there would be two sets of the same particles, which cannot exist at the same time. It would work if all your particles exchanged places with the same particles in another time, but since the memory is stored in the position and condition of the particles you couldn't remember the time travel. No changes would have been made whatsoever, so it would seem as if the time travel never took place.
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Post by MMK » Thu 9th Nov 2006

OK- I understand. Or at least, I think I do. So what about this:

"It's maintly forward. An hour per second for a count of forty, followed by a deceleration to thirty minutes per second for a count of eighteen, then a slight jump backward in time, one minute per second back for a count of two. Then it repeats."

So:
Right before the jump backward, time was going forward at a half hour per second. So "two minutes ago" would really be 30 hours ago. Then the bullet, whipped back only two minutes in time, would be too late, wouldn't it?
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Post by Gravitational Singularity » Thu 9th Nov 2006

It's only when the time is shifting backwords we would need to work with, right? It sais one minute per second, not half an hour per second. This lasts for a count of two, but what exactly does that mean? That for those two "counts" anything that happens will be sent back 30 minutes for each second passed? And if so, how many seconds pass in two "counts"? At least if it is so it would be possible for Artemis to send the bullet 2 minutes back in time if a count lasts for at least 2 seconds.
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