The Ukraine/Russia Situation

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Cabaline
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The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Cabaline » Wed 12th Mar 2014

I'm curious to hear people's opinions on this, especially of anyone who lives in Eastern Europe.

Personally I am outraged. Putin just marches in to Crimea plants the Russian flag and then asks people to 'vote' on whether to be part of Russia or not. The entire way that Putin has behaved in the past year or so reminds me very much of Adolf Hitler. People in Crimea are scared to give their opinions in case they are branded as trouble makers and 'disappear'.

And what is worse is no one else seems to be doing a thing about it. The British prime minister asked Putin what he was doing and his excuse was "Training exercises". Yeah as if, but after that the UK government just went "Well if you say so, but we've got our eyes on you MR!!". As far as I know, America has said that they're on Ukraines side but haven't issued any direct threats. And I don't remember hearing China or Japan say anything about it.

If Putin just takes Ukraine he will start taking wherever he likes. Countries such as Serbia and Bulgaria will struggle to defend themselves. This really is so reminiscent of WW2 and I can't believe that more governments aren't kicking up a fuss.
I think that one of the best things to do would be for UK, USA, Germany (as if Merkel will do anything) to send boats over to the black sea to see off Russia. Bulgaria has one of the worlds best air defence systems so that's nothing to worry about.

As harsh as it sounds I think Russia and Eastern Europe would be better off if Putin got assassinated. I know that it is a terrible think to wish someone dead, but Putin is a terrible terrible person.

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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Bang Your Drum » Wed 12th Mar 2014

My father (who is far more informed on this subject than me to be honest) says Russia is being governed by the mafia (criminal oligarchy?)
The whole thing seems like a sham to me.

I think most world leaders are not in favor of Nuclear War.

I think the US doesn't want to upset China (what with all the manufacturing and accusations of cyber attacks). The United States should not go into this in a military action-y manner… a peaceful solution would be ideal and we should try to support Ukraine.
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Cabaline » Wed 12th Mar 2014

My boyfriend is Bulgarian so he's told me a lot about Russian politics and history and we've had Al Jazeera (a really good news channel) on pretty much 24/7 so that we don't miss any updates.

There pretty much isn't a government any more. Things just happen and Putin doesn't react or seem to care at all. He's testing the rest of the world. If anyone thinks that Putin or anyone in the Russian government was taking having the olympics seriously then wow. They were testing their stance with the rest of the world. They wanted to see if they would be allowed it, once they were given it they stopped caring.

It's exactly the same with Ukraine. The Ukraine leader without any warning or reason decides to abandon the much needed and much wanted bills to further their independence and progress in favour of closer ties with Russia. And we are meant to believe that there wasn't some financial or other gain in it for him personally. The Ukraine people riot, then Ukraine is left without a leader. When Ukraine is at its weakest Moscow troops with tanks and guns march into Crimea and plant the Russian flag. This was planned all along. Someone somewhere is pulling the strings.

I would love for this to be solved peacefully, but Russia in the history of forever has never ever done it that way. The Stalin purges, the USSR. Putin isn't just going to go "Hey you're right, Russian troops will withdraw." and that'll be the end of it. This is going to be long and drawn out and the rest of the world instead of just saying they're on Ukraines side needs to show it and be prepared to show it. I definitely hate it that innocents are getting caught up in this. Regular people who just want an easy life are caught in terrible situations where it seems like no end. I do not want war, at all. But I think this might be where it's going. In Britain we are talking about whether it'll be Cold War 2 or World War 3. And I think if it has to be either, it'll be the latter.

It worries me so much that this might be what we're facing, another war. The world is sick of wars. But I have no idea how else this is going to be solved. It broke my heart the other day to see on TV a man from Crimea begging the US or Germany to help them, he said that Putin is the next Hitler and is stepping in the footsteps of Stalin. That terrifies me.

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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by HollyShort9 » Sat 15th Mar 2014

First I would like to say that I rarely hear much of politics, and thus am very much uninformed. I'd heard there was something going on between Ukraine and Russia, but pretty much know nothing of the details except what I've read in this topic. (Even when I Googled it I couldn't find much of an explanation that went from the beginning of the conflict to current day, for those who live under a rock like I. XD)

But from what I have heard, assuming it's correct, it does seem very much like the beginning of WW2. Everyone back then was too afraid to say anything, get involved or step up to the plate, and that's much of why it went as far as it did and so many people died. I really hope the same thing doesn't happen this time.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Cabaline » Sun 16th Mar 2014

HollyShort9 wrote:"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Wow, I think that this is the best quote I've heard so far to sum it up! There was a woman on the news who tried to tell a reported that she was scared of Russia and Russias influence and a group of nearby women shouted her down and told her not to speak against Russia or she would be labelled as "an instigator" and bad things would happen to her. That is scary!

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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by HollyShort9 » Mon 17th Mar 2014

Cabaline wrote: There was a woman on the news who tried to tell a reported that she was scared of Russia and Russias influence and a group of nearby women shouted her down and told her not to speak against Russia or she would be labelled as "an instigator" and bad things would happen to her. That is scary!
That is so reminiscent of the Holocaust, I can't even.

I only hope that someone who is in a position to do something, does something. I wish I could be that person, but from where I am there's nothing I can do but post angrily on the Internet.
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Skyswallow » Tue 18th Mar 2014

This video by John Green seems to explain some things about Ukraine? Sadly I also can't find any other good sources of information that explain it clearly, but the video seems to give multiple views (but I still need to re-watch it)...
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Cabaline » Tue 18th Mar 2014

HollyShort9 wrote:
Cabaline wrote: There was a woman on the news who tried to tell a reported that she was scared of Russia and Russias influence and a group of nearby women shouted her down and told her not to speak against Russia or she would be labelled as "an instigator" and bad things would happen to her. That is scary!
That is so reminiscent of the Holocaust, I can't even.

I only hope that someone who is in a position to do something, does something. I wish I could be that person, but from where I am there's nothing I can do but post angrily on the Internet.
I know exactly what you mean, I wish I could do more! I mean, right now the UK is not offering aid to British people who choose to stay in Ukraine, and we are not offering asylum to Ukrainians who want to leave their country for somewhere safer. Because my government won't do anything it means that I can't. I would donate money to charities that will help in the event that there are bombings and stuff, but I have zero money too. :?

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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by The redeem3r » Tue 25th Mar 2014

HollyShort9 wrote:First I would like to say that I rarely hear much of politics, and thus am very much uninformed. I'd heard there was something going on between Ukraine and Russia, but pretty much know nothing of the details except what I've read in this topic. (Even when I Googled it I couldn't find much of an explanation that went from the beginning of the conflict to current day, for those who live under a rock like I. XD)

But from what I have heard, assuming it's correct, it does seem very much like the beginning of WW2. Everyone back then was too afraid to say anything, get involved or step up to the plate, and that's much of why it went as far as it did and so many people died. I really hope the same thing doesn't happen this time.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Very crude explanation, and I DO mean very -

Basically the people of Ukrain are very pro European union, and they want their government to show that and change to fit European policy so that they may join the EU. The problem? The government is very pro-Russia, hence the protests and the riots. The government was acting without the consideration of its own people.

So you have these protests and brawls on the street, and the president resigns and flees to Crimea so that he is not arrested. Crimea is strongly pro-Russia in the sense that a state can be democratic/republican - same idea.

Russia, a country of which Ukraine was once a part of, thought, "wait, an opportunity to reclaim this land? Hellz yea!" and the positioned at Crimea, which they knew already was on their side. (I think the numbers say that Crimea is some 89% pro-Russia?)

That's a huge, huge problem for the United States in the sense that 1. It's eerily similar to how World War 2 was started, and 2. The United States sort of propagates the idea that a state or territory of a country cannot secede under democratic law. (At least the current iteration of our government preaches that.) Similar to how after Obama was elected a second time, many states petitioned to secede from the US (remember that funny fiasco?)

So you have Russia, using it's military to invade another country and take land (despite it's approval. Think, what if 89 percent of New York wanted to become a Canadian territory and Canada invaded the US? In that situation, I doubt many people would let NY secede without a military intervention.) from another country. The problem with my comparison is that if Canada tried to invade the US, the war would be so one sided it wouldn't be funny.

It's the opposite in Ukraine, (As if the US invaded Canada to take territory), they could not, nor would they, put up a fight.) Russia is strategically positioned that if Ukraine were to send troops down to Crimea to stop the Russian push, the Russian troops positioned at Ukraine's eastern border would simply swoop in and take the rest of the country. If that happens, you without doubt, would have on your hand a huge war. Ukraine wants to be European, Europe doesn't want to really help Ukraine (I make Europe sound like a monster, but really it'd be detrimental to them in the bigger picture to help, almost all of Europe's oil comes from Russia), and if the US is going to do anything, it's go to war.

That's not to say, however, that Europe isn't trying to put itself in a position to help, as they've urged the US to export more of it's refined gas and use more of it's natural gas domestically (the USA has the world's largest reserve of Natural gas and is the largest producer of oil via fracking). If an agreement could be made like that, sure Europe could help, but it would be very difficult considering the infrastructure that would need to be developed for the US to ship enough gas to sustain an entire continent.

Remember Kosovo in the 90's? A genocide happened because Europe wouldn't intervene despite the US essentially begging them to, so under Clinton, when a similar Genocide was happening and Europe failed to act once again, the US intervened.

My point is - if Russia pushes further than Crimea, there will be war - if Russia takes Crimea and we allow it, that is honestly the best way to prevent a war.
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Cabaline » Tue 25th Mar 2014

Thanks for the great explanation! :D (Also it's super to see you around here :) )

I heard that the vote in Crimea was rigged. Apparently people who had either Ukraine or Russian passports were allowed to vote, meaning that the soldiers who were occupying and stuff were also allowed to vote, and it's pretty obvious who they'd vote for. Plus 12% of Crimea belongs to the Muslim Tatar minority and they want to remain as far as humanly possible away from Russia. So the numbers just don't add up (though most likely people who were opposed to voting pro-Russia will have been too scared to vote in case someone found out.)

Is it not also like only ~60% of Crimea has any Russian heritage, meaning that in a normal referendum the votes might be almost split evenly. But a pro-Russia vote of ~90% is just not right, you can tell from looking at it that something is wrong. :?

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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by HollyShort9 » Wed 26th Mar 2014

@redeem3r: Thanks so much for the explanation! I understand a lot more now. :) It was extremely beneficial. (Yes, I do remember Kosovo--my dad fought in it.)

So it sounds like this is just a terrible situation for everyone. :|
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by HollyShort9 » Thu 17th Apr 2014

Sorry to double post, I would've edited my last post but I wanted people to see I had a new comment-

I heard that Jews are now required to register themselves in Ukraine.
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Cabaline » Fri 18th Apr 2014

Yeah that's true.
Apparently they have to catalogue everything they own and pay a fee to be 'registered'.
I actually feel as if we've somehow gone back in time to 1938. I am so disgusted right now and not one 'world leader' is doing a damn thing about it. It makes me so angry.

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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by HollyShort9 » Fri 18th Apr 2014

Cabaline wrote:Yeah that's true.
Apparently they have to catalogue everything they own and pay a fee to be 'registered'.
I actually feel as if we've somehow gone back in time to 1938. I am so disgusted right now and not one 'world leader' is doing a damn thing about it. It makes me so angry.
Didn't we learn the first time around?
This is exactly how World War II started. Jewish people had to register then, too. And everyone turned a blind eye and said that "nothing that bad is going to happen" and then we ended up with six million people dead, invasions of other countries, and death camps.
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Re: The Ukraine/Russia Situation

Post by Bang Your Drum » Fri 18th Apr 2014

HollyShort9 wrote:
Cabaline wrote:Yeah that's true.
Apparently they have to catalogue everything they own and pay a fee to be 'registered'.
I actually feel as if we've somehow gone back in time to 1938. I am so disgusted right now and not one 'world leader' is doing a damn thing about it. It makes me so angry.
Didn't we learn the first time around?
This is exactly how World War II started. Jewish people had to register then, too. And everyone turned a blind eye and said that "nothing that bad is going to happen" and then we ended up with six million people dead, invasions of other countries, and death camps.

I'm fairly certain something will happen now, or at least I hope. Putin shouldn't be allowed to continue like this.
As it happens both sides of my father's family fled Ukraine due to this kind of persecution.
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