Is God Real?

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Skyswallow
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Skyswallow » Mon 10th Dec 2012

artytwin wrote: yes god is good, and he made this to test people. this whole life is a test. In the end we'll all get what we deserve, either hell or heaven.
Why should he get tried for mass murder fraud and terrorism? did he terrorize people? no! people did that to each other. Before we were born he gave us the decision to chose which path we were going to take, right or wrong. Just because humans didn't follow his rules, doesn't mean that God is the one who is wrong. He didn't make us chose the right path, he gave us the decision. If he made everything good, there would be no purpose for life. After we discover everything there is to know, what then?
I think Ash's point is that people do that in God's name, quite often. In many wars, both sides believe that (their) God is on their side. Even if they believe in the same God, and even if both sides do equally bad things. If your God doesn't want people to think this, then how come He doesn't tell them to stop it?
According to your viewpoint, God created us. I don't know if this is right or wrong. But if we were going to be bad, then how come He let us live? If He doesn't like atheists, surely an all-powerful being knows how we will turn out. Why doesn't he stop us being atheist from the start?
And a theological question: you say that God gave us the decision to take this path in life. What is the soul like before it enters a person? Just curious XD
I'm really sorry if I offend anyone...
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by lackingimagination » Tue 11th Dec 2012

i'm sort of in neutral territory on this one. but there's something i have a problem with here: nearly all the atheist vs theist fights i've seen on the internet have ended with all the atheists ganging up on one theist and saying they're stupid for believing what they do, being snobbish and rude, etc. actually, i've never seen it happen to anyone who isn't a christian, funnily enough. :/
i really don't like that.

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by artytwin » Wed 12th Dec 2012

Skyswallow wrote: I think Ash's point is that people do that in God's name, quite often. In many wars, both sides believe that (their) God is on their side. Even if they believe in the same God, and even if both sides do equally bad things. If your God doesn't want people to think this, then how come He doesn't tell them to stop it?
According to your viewpoint, God created us. I don't know if this is right or wrong. But if we were going to be bad, then how come He let us live? If He doesn't like atheists, surely an all-powerful being knows how we will turn out. Why doesn't he stop us being atheist from the start?
And a theological question: you say that God gave us the decision to take this path in life. What is the soul like before it enters a person? Just curious XD
I'm really sorry if I offend anyone...
Yes, during war both sides think that god is on their side. But he's not always on their side. Some people go and take over other places just because they want to and they say that God is on their side, but in fact he's not.
He let us live because, as I said, this is a test. He will punish those who didn't do good.
In our Quraan it says that god said to the angels that he was going to make people live in earth. The angels said to him, will you make people who corrupt in it and make people shed blood while we pray to you?
God said that he knows what they don't know.
God created Adam and asked the angels to bow to him. The devil didn't claiming that he had created Adam from clay and that he (the devil) was from fire, so he wouldn't bow to Adam claiming that he was better than a clay being. (yes, satan was an angel, in fact he used to be one of the best worshipers) God said he was going to punish Satan, but he begged him not to telling him to delay it. God agreed and said he would put everyone he followed in it as well.
God put Adam in heaven (whether it's THE heaven or a different one I'm not sure. long story) and created Eve to be his wife. He told them not to eat from a tree (some say it's a virtual tree, this needs very profound study) but satan said to them that God just didn't want them to eat from the tree because it would make them great. They ate from it and god sent them to earth telling them to spread good and God's ways.
They had two sons. One was jealous of the other, so he killed him. That's how evil was originated. So it wasn't God's fault, and that's why god let us live.

About the soul thingy, some people say that you get to chose before you're born, but some no. It's because the Quraan is so thick and the words are very complex, and at the time it was given to the prophet Muhammad (PBUH), the language was a little more difficult, so the quotes he said take time to interpret.
There is another belief that there is a world where all the souls are before they're born. It explains deja vous. In that world you see the other souls and some of their actions, which explains why you might say you've seen this happen or seen someone before.
I have no clue what it looks like, and I don't think too many do either :P

In case your asking a question I used to ask: if God knows what's going to happen, then why didn't he just give us what we deserve before he created us one by one through centuries. why not just from the beginning create us all, then throw some of us in hell and lead the others to heaven?
the answer is: if I went and put my little brothers (3 year old twins :3) on time out,they'd ask me what they did. I'd tell them that I know that they were going to do something wrong. They'd call me unjust. Same with God. If he just put one of us in hell, we'd ask him why, and he would say I know you were going to do this and that, and we'd call him unfair because we don't know what he knows.
lackingimagination wrote:i'm sort of in neutral territory on this one. but there's something i have a problem with here: nearly all the atheist vs theist fights i've seen on the internet have ended with all the atheists ganging up on one theist and saying they're stupid for believing what they do, being snobbish and rude, etc. actually, i've never seen it happen to anyone who isn't a christian, funnily enough. :/
i really don't like that.
Really? Never seen it happen to a Muslim? Me neither actually :P You don't like seeing that happen? I don't of course, but having this conversation is the least I can do for God.
what do you mean you're nuetral? you're not sure which you believe in?
no i am not obsessed! I JUST LOVE TALKING ABOUT ARTY 24/7!
no i do not love an imaginary person. YES, HE IS REAL! REAL I TELL YOU!
no i am not weird! I AM TOTALLY CRAZY!
If my heart thumps so quickly...When I hear his name
If I drool while reading books...About him everyday
If I cry when his heart...Is full of searing pain
If I laugh when he starts...To scare people away
If I sleep only to wish to wake...and see his shining face
If I eat only to wish to grow ...pointy ears but in dismay
If I live only to dream to join...the fun in his big game
If I breathe only to hope to be...by his dangerous side always
Then I love Arty fowl...And that love is here to stay ~ artytwin
my greatest secret:
<3 j’adore artemis fowl!<3

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Bang Your Drum
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Bang Your Drum » Thu 13th Dec 2012

lackingimagination wrote:i'm sort of in neutral territory on this one. but there's something i have a problem with here: nearly all the atheist vs theist fights i've seen on the internet have ended with all the atheists ganging up on one theist and saying they're stupid for believing what they do, being snobbish and rude, etc. actually, i've never seen it happen to anyone who isn't a christian, funnily enough. :/
i really don't like that.
Most likely because you've only been visiting sites frequented mostly by mostly Christian nations.... most English speaking countries seem to be, yeah? No one (unless you are one sick sapien) would want to talk trash to a person of the Jewish faith. As for attacking a Muslim, you will be accused of being a bigot...not a thing any self respecting atheist would want!
Moses Seixas wrote:give bigotry no sanction

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artytwin
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by artytwin » Thu 13th Dec 2012

Bang Your Drum wrote: Most likely because you've only been visiting sites frequented mostly by mostly Christian nations.... most English speaking countries seem to be, yeah? No one (unless you are one sick sapien) would want to talk trash to a person of the Jewish faith. As for attacking a Muslim, you will be accused of being a bigot...not a thing any self respecting atheist would want!
why do you say that? just curious.
Especially about the sick sapien part, clarify.
no i am not obsessed! I JUST LOVE TALKING ABOUT ARTY 24/7!
no i do not love an imaginary person. YES, HE IS REAL! REAL I TELL YOU!
no i am not weird! I AM TOTALLY CRAZY!
If my heart thumps so quickly...When I hear his name
If I drool while reading books...About him everyday
If I cry when his heart...Is full of searing pain
If I laugh when he starts...To scare people away
If I sleep only to wish to wake...and see his shining face
If I eat only to wish to grow ...pointy ears but in dismay
If I live only to dream to join...the fun in his big game
If I breathe only to hope to be...by his dangerous side always
Then I love Arty fowl...And that love is here to stay ~ artytwin
my greatest secret:
<3 j’adore artemis fowl!<3

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Ash Kelp
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Ash Kelp » Thu 13th Dec 2012

Bang Your Drum wrote:
lackingimagination wrote:i'm sort of in neutral territory on this one. but there's something i have a problem with here: nearly all the atheist vs theist fights i've seen on the internet have ended with all the atheists ganging up on one theist and saying they're stupid for believing what they do, being snobbish and rude, etc. actually, i've never seen it happen to anyone who isn't a christian, funnily enough. :/
i really don't like that.
Most likely because you've only been visiting sites frequented mostly by mostly Christian nations.... most English speaking countries seem to be, yeah? No one (unless you are one sick sapien) would want to talk trash to a person of the Jewish faith. As for attacking a Muslim, you will be accused of being a bigot...not a thing any self respecting atheist would want!
^I agree with you Byddie, I have a lot of respect for most religons however, I can't say christianity is on that list. Most religons try and get along with people from other religons and people who don't think there's a god. Christianity wouldn't bother me except for the fact that they've forced their beliefs on top of the people who think otherwise. I'm very tired of being suppressed and having to respect others, respect is earned, you can't force people to respect you. Another thing is that Christans play the role of the victim way too much. They can go from suppression to being offended in seconds. I don't really think that God (If there is one) would support Chistans. They offend me me because they slightest anti-religon thing I say gets transformed into a total offence against god and your religon. I am sick of it. I think if there is a god he would offended too. Most religons have self-respect, they don't automatically play the role of the victim every time they're beat in a debate.

Sorry, I just needed to get that out of my system...

Here's an easy to understand science theory that would suggest that there is no god: It's possible with highly advanced knowledge and technology to completely predict the future using math and science, therefore if there is a god, it's not a superior being. As it has predictable psychology and therefore just lost any respect (none) I ever had for him.
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by artytwin » Fri 14th Dec 2012

We can predict very few things, and only things in the near future. But for example, you don't know if you're going to break your leg sometime, or if your going to get married ect. Those, God does know.
no i am not obsessed! I JUST LOVE TALKING ABOUT ARTY 24/7!
no i do not love an imaginary person. YES, HE IS REAL! REAL I TELL YOU!
no i am not weird! I AM TOTALLY CRAZY!
If my heart thumps so quickly...When I hear his name
If I drool while reading books...About him everyday
If I cry when his heart...Is full of searing pain
If I laugh when he starts...To scare people away
If I sleep only to wish to wake...and see his shining face
If I eat only to wish to grow ...pointy ears but in dismay
If I live only to dream to join...the fun in his big game
If I breathe only to hope to be...by his dangerous side always
Then I love Arty fowl...And that love is here to stay ~ artytwin
my greatest secret:
<3 j’adore artemis fowl!<3

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Skyswallow » Fri 14th Dec 2012

^Ah, but how do you know God knows? :wink:
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Stars, in your multitudes - scarce to be counted, filling the darkness with order and light! You are the sentinels, silent and sure - keeping watch in the night, keeping watch in the night.

cepele retro petdamìnpasétócó - 'at some point, past!you gets a plant-like thing (that we think is from the future)'

This user will debate you about how important Jean Valjean is (acceptable answer: very), and the distinction between 'antagonist' and 'villain' and how the terms apply to Javert and the Thenardiers.

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Ash Kelp » Fri 14th Dec 2012

artytwin wrote:We can predict very few things, and only things in the near future. But for example, you don't know if you're going to break your leg sometime, or if your going to get married ect. Those, God does know.
Fun fact: Most people who believe in god believe that god doesn't know what's going to happen, he waits and sees what you do, whether you're naughty or nice. And then he acts based on that. So saying that god has pre-knowledge is about the same as saying that santa knows what he's going to get you before you're even born.
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Battery » Fri 14th Dec 2012

Ash, that bit about Christianity on the last page was pretty rude. Please respect other people's beliefs, and try not to put a group of people together as all having a certain characteristic. That's most of the problem with disputes between religions (and non-religious people) in the first place and it's not helping anyone to be more open to your views.

Personally I don't really want to get into this debate except to make sure everyone's in line, but I would strongly suggest to all of you that if you ever have the chance to take a Mythology class or read a book called The Power of Myth, you should really, really do so. This class and that book have changed how I look at religion completely and I think a lot of you could probably benefit from seeing the point of view expressed in that book :)

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Bang Your Drum » Sat 15th Dec 2012

artytwin wrote:
Bang Your Drum wrote: Most likely because you've only been visiting sites frequented mostly by mostly Christian nations.... most English speaking countries seem to be, yeah? No one (unless you are one sick sapien) would want to talk trash to a person of the Jewish faith. As for attacking a Muslim, you will be accused of being a bigot...not a thing any self respecting atheist would want!
why do you say that? just curious.
Especially about the sick sapien part, clarify.

I don't really see why you are asking why it's a bad idea/actually bad to give a observant Jewish person a difficult time for being a theist. Judaism is older than Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam... Christianity and Islam have many things in common with Judaism (Buddhism is often viewed as a philosophy..so you could be a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc too but also be a Buddhist)
And there's been so many horrible crimes committed against the Jewish people, they've been barred from many occupations and stereotyped for making a living doing the few they could, kicked out of countries they've lived in for generations, had their families ripped apart, been put on trains with standing room only arriving at an unknown place to be gassed by the country they thought was home.
Used for medical experiments. Had their infant children thrown into a furnace.
And blamed for Jesus' death, yes all of them.
Prejudice of any kind is very unfounded after all Jesus was Jewish and spoke no English (noting this because I always hear conservative, almost all Christian and white, people in the US complaining hen people don't speak English) he most likely had a darker complexion than most depictions of him today and yet there's this whole notion Cane is black and a that it was a punishment for killing Abel, and all black people are his decedents... utterly untrue.. that should be without saying.
Antisemitism is just..irrational.. like all prejudice. And from theological standpoint (after all there are people that deny we all came from Africa/shared common ancestors/99.8 percent DNA with every other person on the planet) After all Jesus was Jewish and mentioned more the Mohammad in the Koran too. So even if you don't believe in the science aspects of us all people equals on this earth, from a historically/theological standpoint you still are just being irrational. By "sick sapiens" I meant something along the lines of that.
Moses Seixas wrote:give bigotry no sanction

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by AFrules12 » Sun 16th Dec 2012

Ash Kelp wrote: Fun fact: Most people who believe in god believe that god doesn't know what's going to happen, he waits and sees what you do, whether you're naughty or nice. And then he acts based on that. So saying that god has pre-knowledge is about the same as saying that santa knows what he's going to get you before you're even born.
^^ Christians believe that God is Omniscient. That means all knowing. So you're obviously not talking about Christians, which is a reasonably large section of those who believe in God so not "most people who believe in God" believe that.
Ash Kelp wrote:If you're implying that god is good (If there is one), get your facts right. If he is real he should get tried for mass murder, fraud, terrorism, conspiracy. So called "Laws of god" have implyed that people should be killed when they break certain rules, if you look at the rules closely you'll notice they're non-sencical and idiotic, they imply things for no reason, such that gay people are bad. So if you think that god is good (If there is one), think again.
Christians also believe that God is Omni-benevolent. All good. Also people created these rules in the name of God, that does not means he agrees with them.
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Re: Is God Real?

Post by lackingimagination » Sun 16th Dec 2012

Artificial Asian wrote:Ash, that bit about Christianity on the last page was pretty rude. Please respect other people's beliefs, and try not to put a group of people together as all having a certain characteristic. That's most of the problem with disputes between religions (and non-religious people) in the first place and it's not helping anyone to be more open to your views.

Personally I don't really want to get into this debate except to make sure everyone's in line, but I would strongly suggest to all of you that if you ever have the chance to take a Mythology class or read a book called The Power of Myth, you should really, really do so. This class and that book have changed how I look at religion completely and I think a lot of you could probably benefit from seeing the point of view expressed in that book :)
what, what i said? how was that rude?

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by Skyswallow » Sun 16th Dec 2012

^No, not you. She was talking to Ash. Ash Kelp.

@Affy: there is an old thing that says that God cannot be omniscient, omnibenevolent and all-powerful (forgot the word) at once. If God is all-knowing and all-kind, how come he doesn't fix evil? And if he wants to but can't, then He's not all-powerful.

I have a question for Christians: So far as I have learnt, you believe that no-one could go to Heaven before Christ because of the original sin. However, we know that at least one prophet supposedly went to Heaven -- Elijah in a fiery chariot, I believe. Also, if no-one could go to Heaven then, how about the really good ones? The ones who were really nice, kind, and did everything good they could, and also believed in God. Their only 'crime' in God's eyes was to be human, so would they go to hell?
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Stars, in your multitudes - scarce to be counted, filling the darkness with order and light! You are the sentinels, silent and sure - keeping watch in the night, keeping watch in the night.

cepele retro petdamìnpasétócó - 'at some point, past!you gets a plant-like thing (that we think is from the future)'

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Re: Is God Real?

Post by AFrules12 » Sun 16th Dec 2012

Yes, we were doing that argument in R.E. That is how Christians see him. He is how they see him. So he cannot not be all 3 omnis (you know what I mean XD) because that is what the Christian God is. He is how they believe him. There is the argument that God has a plan and that humans are too stupid to understand, evil is around for a reason which humans do not know.
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