Abortion

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Battery
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Re: Abortion

Post by Battery » Sun 26th May 2013

If we're implying that because some people would be happy to be pregnant that means all pregnant women should count themselves lucky, that doesn't sit right with me

"Well a lot of people who can't afford cake would love to eat cake - why won't you?"
"Well, I'm diabetic, and eating sugar could seriously damage my health, or possibly even kill me."
"That's so selfish. So many people out there would love cake, but you're turning it down?"

Also as to the "we're expecting a __" argument, I don't think this is about vernacular. Just because people don't say "embryo" or "blastocyst" doesn't change the fact that that is what those things are. People call pandas bears all the time, but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't actually bears.

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Re: Abortion

Post by Iris_Cam » Sun 26th May 2013

In terms of legality, I think I should be legal. It however, interferes with "right to practise religion". Which is a fairly big topic in some countries.

I'm not quite sure how people "practise religion". Is it sitting in front of abortion clinics, picketing?
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Re: Abortion

Post by HollyShort9 » Tue 28th May 2013

I've probably posted in here, but it was a long, long time ago and I find that my opinion and my arguments have evolved over time.

Firstly, I personally believe that abortion is wrong. I do think it's murder. It doesn't matter what stage the fetus (baby in my opinion, but fetus is the correct scientific term) is, it is a miracle. Whether you think it's a miracle of nature, of God, of evolution, of life, of the unknown or some other origin, you cannot deny it is a miracle. And all babies are gifts, whether or not they're wanted gifts or not.

I think that abortion is something that should be discussed at home. It isn't something the government has a place to make a law about. It is each person's own choice and while I would never, ever, ever get an abortion, that doesn't mean someone else has the same opinion as me and I have to respect that.

It's just... that "fetus", that "ball of cells", is so much more than that. Whether the baby has a heartbeat or not, whether it has brainwaves or not, it only takes 9 months for it to be a living, breathing, surviving, battling person. How awesome is that? How much is it growing per second? It isn't like anything else, at least not that I know of. From the moment of conception it is fighting its hardest to evolve into the person it will be. It's different from trees or cancer because yeah, cancer is human DNA. Yeah, trees are living, breathing creatures of nature. But babies are people. And whether or not you think it's a person during the time span you can abort, it's going to be a person. Isn't aborting it before it can become that, before it can do anything about it, like killing it? It's defenseless. It isn't the baby's, or the fetus', fault that you were raped or anything like that.

I do think it depends a lot on the situation, and I would never condemn nor judge a person who got an abortion regardless of their situation or opinion or reasoning or whatever. It does somewhat bother me when women screw around, get drunk, have fun, aren't careful, get pregnant and then just abort it because they don't want to take responsibility for it. That is selfish. That is very, very selfish, immature, and irresponsible. But it's not my baby and it's not my life and it's really none of my business.

So yeah. I have a very strong opinion that it's wrong, but I think it's something that should be discussed in homes, families, and communities behind closed doors, not something the government passes any laws on. There should be laws concerning safety and procedures etc. but not to make it legal or illegal or available to this person in this situation, or anything like that.
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Re: Abortion

Post by The redeem3r » Tue 28th May 2013

ArtificialAsian wrote:
Firstly I agree with what Ha said about religious matters not getting involved in politics, but I also have a question I'd like to put in since this argument has come up

When does the zygote/baby/fetus gain its soul? Is it at the instant of fertilization? In your view, what is the defining factor that decides when the zygote/baby/fetus/what-have-you does and does not have a soul?

However, like Ha said, questions of religion and religious beliefs should not come into play in government and lawmaking, and while you have every right to believe it is wrong and not have an abortion, that does not give anyone the right to tell anyone whether or not anyone else can.

That question is much too subjective to be posed in my opinion. I could easily claim myself to be a Christian (and I COULD be one) and claim that until the mother holds the baby in her arm, the transfer of her soul is not complete. Me having said that doesn't make my claim any more truthful than a Christian(or any other religious person for that matter) claiming that the fetus always has a soul.

People have baseline beliefs on the subject - whether abortion is right or wrong - and on top of that they have their subjective arguments to further their cause. This goes for religious people and nonreligious people.

I, however, think it's a question people TRY to relate to morality. But because morality is such an intricate topic, religion, which provides a guideline for morality, is often chosen as a credible alternative. It's harder to form your own opinion on something without the moral guideline that religion provide. That being said, if religion were not to provide a guideline, who's to say the morals of a woman having an abortion are unjust? That's where all the "No, I'm right you're wrong," tends to come from in these type of arguments.

I do agree that religion should not be mixed into the government. At least not this one. Countries that have names like "The Islamic of Iran" should be allowed to if they see fit, because their people have chosen to follow it, but in the United States of America, we were founded on the notion that the two DON'T mix.

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Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

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Re: Abortion

Post by lackingimagination » Sat 1st Jun 2013

i didn't mean to imply that every women means to get pregnant. i meant to imply that the implication that NO woman enjoys pregnancy or wants to get pregnant is very, very untrue... :x

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Re: Abortion

Post by Bang Your Drum » Fri 7th Jun 2013

I said nothing of the sort, there's a difference between becoming pregnant (the joy, the feelings you have for the other person given physical form) but then there's the actually physical element of medical complication (and bills!)
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Re: Abortion

Post by world is quiet here » Thu 1st Aug 2013

I havwent read the topic, but I thought i might as well just say this.
I think its so unfair that women can abort their child (which is just simply a form of killing a human) a man can get stuck in childcare for 18 years. I don't know if this makes sense, but I hope you can see what I mean.

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Re: Abortion

Post by Bang Your Drum » Thu 1st Aug 2013

Well since bio men can never get pregnant, it seems strange that they can tell a woman who is what to do. Remember most abortions happen when the fetus is the size of a bean, and heart beat does not equal life, in the human advanced organism sense.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Battery » Thu 1st Aug 2013

Also, it's a little offensive to stereotype like that - when the father of a child wins custody, the mother pays child support as well. It's not something that's strictly limited to men.

This isn't an issue of gender equality unless it is in the sense that women should have the same rights to control their own bodies as men are allowed by default.

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Re: Abortion

Post by Fowls_Girl » Sun 18th May 2014

HollyShort9 wrote:I've probably posted in here, but it was a long, long time ago and I find that my opinion and my arguments have evolved over time.

Firstly, I personally believe that abortion is wrong. I do think it's murder. It doesn't matter what stage the fetus (baby in my opinion, but fetus is the correct scientific term) is, it is a miracle. Whether you think it's a miracle of nature, of God, of evolution, of life, of the unknown or some other origin, you cannot deny it is a miracle. And all babies are gifts, whether or not they're wanted gifts or not.

I think that abortion is something that should be discussed at home. It isn't something the government has a place to make a law about. It is each person's own choice and while I would never, ever, ever get an abortion, that doesn't mean someone else has the same opinion as me and I have to respect that.

It's just... that "fetus", that "ball of cells", is so much more than that. Whether the baby has a heartbeat or not, whether it has brainwaves or not, it only takes 9 months for it to be a living, breathing, surviving, battling person. How awesome is that? How much is it growing per second? It isn't like anything else, at least not that I know of. From the moment of conception it is fighting its hardest to evolve into the person it will be. It's different from trees or cancer because yeah, cancer is human DNA. Yeah, trees are living, breathing creatures of nature. But babies are people. And whether or not you think it's a person during the time span you can abort, it's going to be a person. Isn't aborting it before it can become that, before it can do anything about it, like killing it? It's defenseless. It isn't the baby's, or the fetus', fault that you were raped or anything like that.

I do think it depends a lot on the situation, and I would never condemn nor judge a person who got an abortion regardless of their situation or opinion or reasoning or whatever. It does somewhat bother me when women screw around, get drunk, have fun, aren't careful, get pregnant and then just abort it because they don't want to take responsibility for it. That is selfish. That is very, very selfish, immature, and irresponsible. But it's not my baby and it's not my life and it's really none of my business.

So yeah. I have a very strong opinion that it's wrong, but I think it's something that should be discussed in homes, families, and communities behind closed doors, not something the government passes any laws on. There should be laws concerning safety and procedures etc. but not to make it legal or illegal or available to this person in this situation, or anything like that.
Very well said. My sentiments exactly.
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Re: Abortion

Post by HollyShort9 » Tue 19th Aug 2014

Bang Your Drum wrote:Well since bio men can never get pregnant, it seems strange that they can tell a woman who is what to do.
While I do understand your meaning, the baby is the father's baby as well.
This is a moot point when it comes to rape cases, but when it's the result of consensual sex, especially with a boyfriend, especially with a husband, I think he should be able to weigh in on the matter.
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Re: Abortion

Post by Bang Your Drum » Wed 20th Aug 2014

^What if the opposite was true? Someone being pressured by a partner into having an abortion?
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Re: Abortion

Post by HollyShort9 » Thu 21st Aug 2014

Bang Your Drum wrote:^What if the opposite was true? Someone being pressured by a partner into having an abortion?
I think pressuring either way (to have, to not have) is bad and a legitimate problem that happens in today's society. Personally, if it were me, I think that if I wanted to keep the baby but my partner wanted me to abort it, they'd be out the door pretty quickly lol. If it were my husband, I'd hope I would have picked a partner that would have wanted to have kids with me...
I think that if I wanted to abort it (not that I would, however this is a hypothetical situation), but the father wanted to keep it, I would have the baby and let him adopt it. That way I'm not in the picture and he keeps the baby. Everyone is happy.

I do think that abortion clinics asking questions about why you're having an abortion is a good thing because it can raise red flags that call to question whether it's truly your choice or something you've been pressured to do, but I don't know if that's enough in a lot of cases.
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