Abortion

Debates of a more controversial nature, and discussions on the latest world events. Give your opinions, but no flaming!
Post Reply
User avatar
lackingimagination
Gnome
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat 9th Jun 2012
Gender: Female
Location: Municiberg

Re: Abortion

Post by lackingimagination » Fri 30th Nov 2012

HollyShort9 wrote:
lackingimagination wrote:to me, a baby is a human being, a child. they won't perform abortions after a certain stage for this reason--but is the baby less of a human before that? to me, the answer is no. also, the idea of it disgusts me and makes me want to vomit. i am decidedly against it.
Here it isn't legal, but in some countries, you can wait until a year after the baby is born to abort it. You just decide, "I don't want this kid anymore" before it turns a year old and they kill it for you.
that's not abortion.
that's murder.
is there really any difference?

"ball of cells". give my *** a break. it just makes me mad. at what point can we say a baby's a baby? when its heart is beating? look, it's not about religion for me. it's that they say a child is a child at a certain stage, birth, and before that it doesn't have any rights, it's just a "ball of cells". that "ball of cells" is going to grow up, have emotions and feelings just like you, fall in love, get married, have children of his or her own. that "ball of cells" doesn't need to have a heartbeat to have basic rights that every human should.
abortion makes me angry as hell.


but then there's the rape factor.
that confuses me.
i understand the pain and horror a woman would feel if she was pregnant because of a rape, and i get that you wouldn't want to feel that, but i'm not sure that still makes it right. can't you just give it up for adoption?

when it's to save the mother's life, well, i understand then.

the whole issue is confusing to me, but i mostly know how i feel about it.

User avatar
Ash Kelp
Centaur Genius
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed 4th Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Location: In the great and awesome Cascadia, where the norm is rain, and coffee.

Re: Abortion

Post by Ash Kelp » Fri 30th Nov 2012

^In my opinion, the Baby could be considered a hostile being. As it is invading the Mom's body for it's purposes. Thus, Abortion is legal until the baby leaves the body. You could easily and legally claim that you killed the Baby in self-defense. Legally, it makes sense to have abortion, as well as population control and poverty control.

Also, the average aborted baby is being saved from a bad life. Would you rather grow up being mocked becuase you only have one parent, or becuase your parent(s) are under age? Or because your dad is a Raptist? Or would you like to grow up without enough money?

Abortion is a medical tool to stop life from ever happening so it doesn't have to suffer from any of those things, if you want people to not be killed but suffer a lot then I just don't understand, there's no logic in it.

And of course the main reason I'm for it: There's no logical reason not to.
Image
It's like Trouble, but with many a variation.

User avatar
lackingimagination
Gnome
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat 9th Jun 2012
Gender: Female
Location: Municiberg

Re: Abortion

Post by lackingimagination » Sat 1st Dec 2012

Ash Kelp wrote:^In my opinion, the Baby could be considered a hostile being. As it is invading the Mom's body for it's purposes. Thus, Abortion is legal until the baby leaves the body. You could easily and legally claim that you killed the Baby in self-defense. Legally, it makes sense to have abortion, as well as population control and poverty control.

Also, the average aborted baby is being saved from a bad life. Would you rather grow up being mocked becuase you only have one parent, or becuase your parent(s) are under age? Or because your dad is a Raptist? Or would you like to grow up without enough money?

Abortion is a medical tool to stop life from ever happening so it doesn't have to suffer from any of those things, if you want people to not be killed but suffer a lot then I just don't understand, there's no logic in it.

And of course the main reason I'm for it: There's no logical reason not to.
are you asking, "would you rather have not enough money or get bullied, or be dead"?
because i think that's an obvious question for anyone who isn't severely depressed.

User avatar
Ash Kelp
Centaur Genius
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed 4th Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Location: In the great and awesome Cascadia, where the norm is rain, and coffee.

Re: Abortion

Post by Ash Kelp » Sat 1st Dec 2012

^That's what I'm saying, you might not be depressed, but if you were bullied all the time or had no money you would surely be depressed.

Also, there's no logical reason to support abortion, it causes there to be less over-population of babies who probably just shouldn't have existed. And it can save lives. Plus, in my opinion a baby isn't born until it leaves the host body. Therefor you are not killing something that is alive, so it is not murder. (In my opinion) When a baby is still in the host body, it is alive as a tree, maybe less. Do you justify the killing of a tree if it supports life, or if it won't live, or if it will provide wood to places where wood is needed?
Image
It's like Trouble, but with many a variation.

world is quiet here
Centaur Genius
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue 7th Feb 2012
Gender: Male

Re: Abortion

Post by world is quiet here » Sat 1st Dec 2012

It's basically saving yourself by killing another in a way, if you're definitely gonna die giving birth.

I don't want to read all of this topic, but here's my chip.

User avatar
lackingimagination
Gnome
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat 9th Jun 2012
Gender: Female
Location: Municiberg

Re: Abortion

Post by lackingimagination » Sat 1st Dec 2012

Ash Kelp wrote:^That's what I'm saying, you might not be depressed, but if you were bullied all the time or had no money you would surely be depressed.

Also, there's no logical reason to support abortion, it causes there to be less over-population of babies who probably just shouldn't have existed. And it can save lives. Plus, in my opinion a baby isn't born until it leaves the host body. Therefor you are not killing something that is alive, so it is not murder. (In my opinion) When a baby is still in the host body, it is alive as a tree, maybe less. Do you justify the killing of a tree if it supports life, or if it won't live, or if it will provide wood to places where wood is needed?
you're comparing a human being to a tree.
you're honestly comparing a human being to a tree.
look, we can't know anything for absolute sure, but personally, i don't support abortion unless it's to save the mother's life. the whole issue is confusing and stressful for me and i really don't want to get into an argument about it. i also don't really know what else to say.

User avatar
Ash Kelp
Centaur Genius
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed 4th Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Location: In the great and awesome Cascadia, where the norm is rain, and coffee.

Re: Abortion

Post by Ash Kelp » Sun 2nd Dec 2012

^Three things:

The First: Thank you for noticing that, I usaully put very important but subtle things in arguements that get missed by everyone somehow.

The Second: Speaking of which; You seemed to miss the fact that the main reason I'm for abortion is because there is no logical counter-arguement that I have heard so far, if you wish to give one it might change my perspective.

The Third: I'm just comparing one being that is alive to another, unless you don't think that babies are alive.
Image
It's like Trouble, but with many a variation.

User avatar
slepyoneshot
Dwarf Miner
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon 18th Jun 2012
Gender: Male
Location: the butter heaven
Contact:

Re: Abortion

Post by slepyoneshot » Wed 13th Feb 2013

Artificial Asian wrote:
Fowl's_Girl wrote:Abortion is murder, because the baby is a real person, and should be given a chance to live, no matter what conditions they would grow up in. 'Pro-choice' is a very nice and convenient way to say 'pro-abortion'. If you think about it, it is the same thing.
I'd like to clarify a couple of things here. Firstly, I'd like to reiterate that when abortion is legal, the fetus is not yet a person. It cannot yet feel, it cannot yet think, and for the first several weeks, it does not yet even have an individual heartbeat. It isn't a matter of whether or not it looks like a baby yet or not, it literally is not a baby by every scientific definition. It's barely more than a clump of cells in the uterus. Granted, the DNA is human, but by that argument, removing cancer would be a bad thing.

And secondly, I just want to make sure that you know that pro-choice does not mean infant-killing, axe-murdering, shady character. It just means that we believe that a woman should be given a choice whether or not to go through with her pregnancy. That doesn't mean that we think there should be an abortion clinic on every corner, or that we want to murder babies. Because, as I would remind you again, at the point where most people believe abortion is legal and justifiable, there is not yet a separate human being present.

Reading through this forum, of course i don't know some words and i know i probably shouldnt look them up because the 8th graders at my school say them a lot and they say bad things all the time... anyways. As far as i know, the reason i quoted that is because of the argument that it is not a person yet, while in a fetus, a baby may not be a person, but it still has a soul, which you are basically putting into purgatory with no knowledge of whats right or wrong. they will be confused and disoriented, and that would be no way to be happy
do you not like me? doesnt matter, i face a lot more than you in real life

do you not like the fact that i am a big gamer? doesnt matter, i face a lot more than you in real life

do you not like butter? doesnt matter you dont know how awesome it is

do you not like anything about me? you only think im a kid who likes to annoy everyone i see, i have ADHD, dont blame me for my gift from god, ADHD lets me be happy in real life even though im hated there

Image

User avatar
JLHxXxX
LEP Commander
Posts: 2028
Joined: Mon 6th Jul 2009
Gender: Female
Location: Dancing on the Eiffel Tower with Kitty~

Re: Abortion

Post by JLHxXxX » Wed 13th Feb 2013

And, my comment to that is that the government has no right to take away someone else's rights when it comes to religious belief. Separation of church and state. It does not MATTER if you view it as wrong religiously. Sure, if you view it wrong for other reasons, have at it.

Scientifically, the abortion stage is when the fetus cannot do anything but sit there and wait to grow into something else. What about women that were raped? What if they DIE if they have this kid? Have you ever thought of that? If an ill woman becomes pregnant, should she just simply, without thought, give up her life for this cluster of cells in her abdomen?

I don't give a crap if you think it has a soul, in all honesty. The government shouldn't be, either. Religion should not be in political debates. Ever. This country is based off of what is best for its people. It is to support and protect the rights of man.

Granted, teenagers should not be involved in sexual intercourse in the first place. However, many are not mature enough to understand the circumstances. Having a child early ruins your life. If you knew your education, possibility for job, money, life, husband, anything in general was on the line, what would you do? Rape also goes into this category. When pregnant, you miss months of school. I can only imagine how difficult that is.

I'm not saying abortion is RIGHT. It doesn't matter if it's Right or Wrong. It matters if conducting in abortion is putting the safety of the people at risk. Women have the rights to choose to put their body through a massive warp that science still has yet to entirely understand. Abortion does not hurt your neighbor, it does not hurt your town, it does not even hurt you, it helps you.

Religiously, you can think it's wrong all you want. I don't really care. Politics is not RIGHT or WRONG. It's what is safe and what is not. It is what helps the people and what does not. It is to protect our rights and freedoms.

Stop dragging religion into political debates. It is the corruption of the century, and the church is getting a hold on the government again. Do you know your history? Just how well will that turn out? Most likely, not well at all.
Waiting for the bus that never comes is silly. Once you start to walk, every opportunity will be stopping you in your tracks to greet you.

~HaTheAngel~

User avatar
Battery
Ringbearer
Posts: 7121
Joined: Sun 4th Oct 2009
Gender: Female
Location: The Shire
Contact:

Re: Abortion

Post by Battery » Wed 13th Feb 2013

slepyoneshot wrote:
Artificial Asian wrote:
Fowl's_Girl wrote:Abortion is murder, because the baby is a real person, and should be given a chance to live, no matter what conditions they would grow up in. 'Pro-choice' is a very nice and convenient way to say 'pro-abortion'. If you think about it, it is the same thing.
I'd like to clarify a couple of things here. Firstly, I'd like to reiterate that when abortion is legal, the fetus is not yet a person. It cannot yet feel, it cannot yet think, and for the first several weeks, it does not yet even have an individual heartbeat. It isn't a matter of whether or not it looks like a baby yet or not, it literally is not a baby by every scientific definition. It's barely more than a clump of cells in the uterus. Granted, the DNA is human, but by that argument, removing cancer would be a bad thing.

And secondly, I just want to make sure that you know that pro-choice does not mean infant-killing, axe-murdering, shady character. It just means that we believe that a woman should be given a choice whether or not to go through with her pregnancy. That doesn't mean that we think there should be an abortion clinic on every corner, or that we want to murder babies. Because, as I would remind you again, at the point where most people believe abortion is legal and justifiable, there is not yet a separate human being present.

Reading through this forum, of course i don't know some words and i know i probably shouldnt look them up because the 8th graders at my school say them a lot and they say bad things all the time... anyways. As far as i know, the reason i quoted that is because of the argument that it is not a person yet, while in a fetus, a baby may not be a person, but it still has a soul, which you are basically putting into purgatory with no knowledge of whats right or wrong. they will be confused and disoriented, and that would be no way to be happy
Firstly I agree with what Ha said about religious matters not getting involved in politics, but I also have a question I'd like to put in since this argument has come up

When does the zygote/baby/fetus gain its soul? Is it at the instant of fertilization? In your view, what is the defining factor that decides when the zygote/baby/fetus/what-have-you does and does not have a soul?

However, like Ha said, questions of religion and religious beliefs should not come into play in government and lawmaking, and while you have every right to believe it is wrong and not have an abortion, that does not give anyone the right to tell anyone whether or not anyone else can.
Image
online more often than you probably assume
tumblr & ao3

User avatar
Lavaeolus
Goblin
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat 2nd Feb 2013

Re: Abortion

Post by Lavaeolus » Thu 28th Feb 2013

A fetus has no thoughts, no emotions, no life. It does not interpret the world; it does not give two bits of fecal matter over whether you develop it, abort it or throw it into traffic.

If it has a soul... then a soul becomes meaningless. You have robbed all value from this "soul". No thoughts, no emotions... If a fetus has a soul, then nothing I am is part of it. Nothing you are.

Does the soul exist? If a fetus has one, it may as well not.

User avatar
lackingimagination
Gnome
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat 9th Jun 2012
Gender: Female
Location: Municiberg

Re: Abortion

Post by lackingimagination » Thu 23rd May 2013

"Oh, so you're expecting a fetus!"
"Congrats on your fetus!"
"What are you going to name your embryo?"
"We're trying for a blastocyst."
"We're holding a fetus shower for her."


Funny how I never hear expectant mothers say those things.
Just a comment, feel free to take it as you will.

User avatar
Bang Your Drum
serial addict
Posts: 5913
Joined: Tue 1st May 2007
Location: Penn's Forrest
Contact:

Re: Abortion

Post by Bang Your Drum » Thu 23rd May 2013

lackingimagination wrote:"Oh, so you're expecting a fetus!"
"Congrats on your fetus!"
"What are you going to name your embryo?"
"We're trying for a blastocyst."
"We're holding a fetus shower for her."


Funny how I never hear expectant mothers say those things.
Just a comment, feel free to take it as you will.
That's because most people who are trying to get pregnant want to get pregnant, not everyone has this choice sadly...
I normally see the word baby as used for after the birth takes place...
Because, pregnancy is nasty, you get sick in the mornings and have to use the toilet more, and your shoe size may go up....(other health complications can come up too, more serious ones)
Becuase, honestly, have you ever heard of someone enjoying the actual pregnancy? Let alone childbirth?
Moses Seixas wrote:give bigotry no sanction

User avatar
lackingimagination
Gnome
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat 9th Jun 2012
Gender: Female
Location: Municiberg

Re: Abortion

Post by lackingimagination » Sat 25th May 2013

Bang Your Drum wrote:
lackingimagination wrote:"Oh, so you're expecting a fetus!"
"Congrats on your fetus!"
"What are you going to name your embryo?"
"We're trying for a blastocyst."
"We're holding a fetus shower for her."


Funny how I never hear expectant mothers say those things.
Just a comment, feel free to take it as you will.
That's because most people who are trying to get pregnant want to get pregnant, not everyone has this choice sadly...
I normally see the word baby as used for after the birth takes place...
Because, pregnancy is nasty, you get sick in the mornings and have to use the toilet more, and your shoe size may go up....(other health complications can come up too, more serious ones)
Becuase, honestly, have you ever heard of someone enjoying the actual pregnancy? Let alone childbirth?
um.
yes.
very often. especially when the mother has had three+ miscarriages and didn't think she could ever have a child. yes. i've seen women enjoy pregnancy.

User avatar
Bang Your Drum
serial addict
Posts: 5913
Joined: Tue 1st May 2007
Location: Penn's Forrest
Contact:

Re: Abortion

Post by Bang Your Drum » Sat 25th May 2013

lackingimagination wrote: um.
yes.
very often. especially when the mother has had three+ miscarriages and didn't think she could ever have a child. yes. i've seen women enjoy pregnancy.
So it's a girls' choice if her cousin/neighbor/boyfriend/father/who ever rapes her? I'm no saying no one plans to get pregnaunt, AT ALL. There just many times a pregnancy can be a problem, especially if the mother has pre existing health problems....
As for enjyoing being pregnant "healthy glow" cliche aside I cannot see anyone wanting to pay all those medical bills, buying new clothes that you would have little use for (ie matiernity clothes) and needing to pee more often.
My own mother struggled with fertility, so I get waht you are tryign to say.. but there are also people who don't want babies.
Moses Seixas wrote:give bigotry no sanction

Post Reply